Structured Discussions/Deprecation
Structured Discussions (SD - Flow) is a deprecated extension. Users are advised to discontinue its use, and communities are encouraged to move their talk pages that use Structured Discussions to subpages and stop using them. It is used on a few wikis. This extension is not maintained. DiscussionTools (DT) is the default discussion system on wikis now.
The Growth team (SD maintainers) and the Editing team (DT maintainers) have started thinking about how to deprecate Structured Discussions (and possibly LiquidThreads) and replace them with DiscussionTools.
Structured Discussions is a complex piece of software that generates a lot of maintenance issues. Estimating the work required to adapt Structured Discussions to the Temporary Accounts project revealed a very significant workload. In view of all these challenges, the decision was taken to inform the communities of the future deprecation of Structured Discussions.
The idea is to encourage communities to switch active Structured Discussions tools to the DiscussionTools talk page format. Then, the Structured Discussions pages would be removed from the wikis, at a yet to-be-defined date.
Project updates
edit- - first internal document by Kosta Harlan (Staff software engineer, Growth team) and Benoît Evellin (Community Relations Specialist, attached to the Growth team) on sunsetting SD
- - first meeting with Growth and Editing about SD deprecation
- - Comparison table of the two tools.
- - creation of the project page
- - Data on usage of Structured Discussions
- - Community discussions regarding archiving SD boards on wikis.
- - Communication plan to assist communities archiving their Flow/LQT boards
- - Communities are progressively informed of Flow/LQT's deprecation and are invited to move their pages using these tools as archived pages. These pages will be set to read-only mode soon after.
- - Phase 0 wikis Flow/LQT pages are set to read-only.
- - Phase 1 wikis Flow/LQT pages are set to read-only.
- Next - Phase 2 wikis Flow/LQT pages are set to read-only.
- Next - Convert Flow/LQT contents
Structured Discussions' deprecation
editThe Wikimedia Foundation is working on changes to how IP editing is handled: Temporary Accounts. Temporary accounts for unregistered editors will be a new type of user account. This requires changing how features we use to contribute to wikis works.
This work concerns all features, and it raises some challenges. The case of Structured Discussions (also known as “SD” or “Flow”) is one of them. This extension is used at a few wikis, that were progressively contacted in November and December 2023. Flow is a complex piece of software that was never quite finished, fits poorly into the MediaWiki architecture, and creates a significant number of technical errors.
The usage of Structured Discussions is low. In August 2023, on average DiscussionTools is used about 18,780 times per day, while Structured Discussions is used about 250 times per day, mainly at French Wikipedia.
We considered several options to adapt Structured Discussions, including a full adaptation, or a partial adaptation where Temp accounts can respond but not create new conversations. All of them would take a lot of time and effort for a short-term benefit. Also, the Wikimedia Foundation's long-term plan is to remove Structured Discussions from the wikis, mainly due to the maintenance cost. As a consequence, we prefer to avoid adapting Structured Discussions to Temporary accounts.
We took the opportunity of work around Temporary accounts to question the concerned communities regarding the future of Structured Discussions.
DiscussionTools is the replacement for Structured Discussions. DiscussionTools is the default discussion system at all wikis. It allows anyone to start, reply or subscribe to a conversation. It provides a visual experience for wikitext-based conversations, and it covers the vast majority of features Structured Discussions offers.
The goal with this conversation is to respond to the community's questions regarding the archival of Structured Discussions.
The idea is to proceed in two stages:
- discussion pages using SD are archived as subpages. They are replaced by a classic discussion page. In this way, the most active pages will already be ready when we proceed to step 2.
- SD are removed from the wiki. Existing pages (including archived ones) will be converted to a format yet to be defined.
We encourage communities to start the first step.
Questions asked to the communities
editStarting at the end of November 2023, communities where Structured Discussions are still in use are progressively informed of the upcoming deprecation. We ask them the following questions:
- Are the reasons given for archiving structured discussions clear?
- Are the two steps outlined above for archiving and uninstalling structured discussions clear?
- If so, what is a reasonable timeframe for archiving pages for deinstallation? At present, deinstallation is not planned on our side (even if the second quarter of 2024 is mentioned), as we are waiting for the end of these conversations, which take place on multiple wikis.
- In your opinion, what format should pages currently using SDs be converted to when we proceed with the deinstallation of structured discussions?
Deprecation timeline
editThe deprecation will be performed as follows:
- Moving all Flow pages that aren't sub-pages as sub-pages[1]
- First this move is done by users. This way, users of active Flow boards have the opportunity to move active discussions to a classical new talk page.
- At a given date, a script will moves the remaining pages.
- Setting these pages in read-only mode.
- Converting contents to wikitext.
The two first steps are conducted by the Editing team starting October 2024. Wikis have been grouped by phases.
| Phase | Wikis | Moving all Flow pages as sub-pages | Setting Flow pages in read-only mode | Converting contents to wikitext |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Phase 0 | commonswiki, cswiki, enwiki, eowiki, frwiktionary, hewiki, kkwiki, metawiki, pawiki, ruwiki, specieswiki, svwiki, test2wiki, tewiki, nowiki, outreachwiki | Script ran on | not defined | |
| Phase 1 | bswiki, elwiki, euwiki, fawiki, fiwiki, frwikiquote, frwikisource, frwikiversity, frwikivoyage, idwiki, lvwiki, plwiki, ptwiki, urwiki, viwikisource, zhwikisource | Script ran on | not defined | |
| Phase 2a | arwiki, cawiki, frwiki , mediawikiwiki , orwiki, wawiki, wawiktionary, wikidatawiki, zhwiki | Script ran on | not defined | |
| Phase 2b | cawikiquote, fiwikimedia, gomwiki, kabwiki, ptwikibooks, sewikimedia | to be added | to be added | not defined |
Structured Discussions and DiscussionTools Comparative review
editMain characteristics
editStatus of each tool, and their integration to the wiki's key features.
| LiquidThreads | Structured Discussions | DiscussionTools | Convenient Discussions | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Type of tool | MediaWiki extension | Gadget/Userscript based on DiscussionTools | ||
| Release status | Unmaintained | Maintained (Wikimedia Foundation) | Maintained (Volunteers) | |
| Activation | Pending removal[2] | Deployed on all wikis as the default discussion system.[3] User configurable (including opting-out). | User opt-in and configurable | |
| Visual editing | No | Yes | Yes | No |
| Backwards-compatibility with wikitext | No | No | Yes | Yes |
| Templates support | Yes | Yes | Partial – Tables, templates and parser tags aren't allowed in replies in visual mode | Yes |
| Full history integration with the rest of the wiki | Yes | No | Yes | Yes |
| Mobile web support | No | Yes | Yes | No |
| Mobile app support | No | No | Yes | No |
| Permalink to a given comment | Yes | Yes | Yes – if the signature of the comment is not altered.[4] | |
Discussion features
editInteraction with talk pages and other comments.
| LiquidThreads | Structured Discussions | DiscussionTools | Convenient Discussions | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Dedicated workflow for starting a new topic | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes |
| Topic and contents preload | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes |
| Indication of new comments when you read a topic | No | No | Yes | Yes |
| Indication of edited comments when you read a topic | Yes | Yes | No | Yes |
| Each conversation has a permalink | Yes | Yes – Each topic is a different page. | Yes – By linking to the topic heading, or by using the first comment's permalink.[4] | Yes[4] |
| Move topics between pages | Yes | No – planned but not implemented | Yes – via wikitext editing; title and signature mustn't be altered during the move.[4] | Yes |
| Include discussions on another page and reply to them there | No | No – planned, including cross-wiki transclusion, but not implemented | Yes – via transclusion | |
| Editing comments | Yes | Yes | Partial – via wikitext editing the whole page or section. See T242562 and T245225 for the editing of individual comments. | Yes |
| Thank a comment from within the talk page | Partial – via Page history | Yes | Partial – via Thanks in Page history. In progress – Work on supporting "Thanking" from the DiscussionTools UI is being tracked.
|
Yes |
| Sort topics by recent comment | Yes | Yes | No | No |
| Sort topics by start date | Yes | Yes | No | No |
| Summarize a discussion at the top of it | Yes | Yes | Partial – by editing opening comment. | |
| Mark a message as read or unread | Yes | No | No | No |
| Show/hide (collapse) subthreads | Yes | No | No | Yes |
Notifications and interactivity
edit| LiquidThreads | Structured Discussions | DiscussionTools | Convenient Discussions | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Highlight a set of unread comments | No | Yes | Yes – only when subscribed to a topic and using links from notifications | Yes |
| Subscribe to be notified about new comments to a topic | Yes – via Watchlist | Yes – via Echo | Yes – via Echo or itself | |
| Be notified when a new topic is started on a talk page | ||||
| Auto-subscription to a topic you created | Yes – default | |||
| Highlight a quoted comment | No – can link to comments but only as standalone pages | Yes | Yes | Yes |
| Notification of edited comments | Partial – only on your own comments | Yes | No | No |
Maintenance and moderation
edit| LiquidThreads | Structured Discussions | DiscussionTools | Convenient Discussions | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Direct access to user talkpage, contribs and more | Partial – if linked in the signature | Yes | Partial – if linked in the signature | |
| Hide (moderate) a comment | Partial – no undelete UI | Yes | Partial – via undo/rollback (requires searching for edit in edit history) or archival templates, not included and requires editing wikitext | Yes |
| Hide or delete a topic | Yes | Partial – same as DiscussionTools | ||
| Archiving discussions | Not needed | Not needed | No – see T337293
|
No – Same as DiscussionTools, though moving topics can be used for manual archival. |
| Report an inappropriate comment | No | No | In progress[5]
|
No |
Data on usage
editIn August 2023, on average:
- DiscussionTools is used about 18,780 times per day.
- Flow is used about 250 times per day, mainly at French Wikipedia.
- LiquidThreads is used less than once per day.
Notes and references
edit- ↑ We assume that any sub-page is an archive.
- ↑ phab:T332022
- ↑ A few wikis have Flow as the default discussion system.
- ↑ 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 DiscussionTools has its own system of permalinks based on signatures. Convenient Discussions can auto-generate links for this system as well as PermanentLinks to the current revision.
- ↑ T339247 – Create entry points for the Incident Report dialog with DiscussionTools