Talk:Growth

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Discussion related to the old Growth team is archived at Talk:Growth/Growth 2014.

Translation from translatewiki.net

3
Iniquity (talkcontribs)

@Trizek (WMF), hi:) How often is the translation from the translatewiki.net updated?

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hello!

Once a week, with the deployment train as announced on Tech News (on Thursdays for your wiki).

In the meantime, you can override some messages locally, but don't forget to remove them when the translation is available!

Iniquity (talkcontribs)

Yes, I know that, but I haven't received translations for the second week.

Reply to "Translation from translatewiki.net"
Iniquity (talkcontribs)

Hi, I asked @RHo (WMF), but she isn't answer me:) What font do you use for your logo?

RHo (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Iniquity, in answer to your question the Growth team logo uses Montserrat , the same font used for the Wikimeddia Foundation wordmark and titles (see more info on meta here), hope that helps!

Iniquity (talkcontribs)

Thanks! :)

Iniquity (talkcontribs)
Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

This is indeed a cool thing. When it works. :/

Iniquity (talkcontribs)

xD I hope someday there is someone who will support it :)

Reply to "Language screenshots"

request for deployment of growth prototype on clinicianwiki.com

4
Timingliu (talkcontribs)

Hi I am the founder of clinicianwiki.com. This is a really exciting project and I am happy to help with testing of the prototype on clinicianwiki.com

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Timingliu -- thank you for getting in touch and congratulations on founding a new wiki! We agree that the Growth features have the potential to help non-Wikimedia wikis, and you are welcome to install them on your wiki. Our team is able to answer questions, but we won't be able to manage the process or alter the software to better fit non-Wikimedia wikis. Does that sound okay?

Timingliu (talkcontribs)

Hi @MMiller (WMF) thanks for replying! How can I install the growth features on my wiki?

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Timingliu -- this is the page that explains about the GrowthExperiments extension and how to install it: Extension:GrowthExperiments. If you have questions, the fastest place to ask is at the support desk: Project:Support desk. Or if the questions are specific to Growth functionality, you can also ask here.

Reply to "request for deployment of growth prototype on clinicianwiki.com"

Team name in other languages

4
Iniquity (talkcontribs)

Do I need to translate the name of the team to other language? And if so, what is the exact meaning of the word "growth"? :)

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Iniquity -- thanks for that question. @Trizek (WMF) will probably have some good advice about this.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thank you for this question!

You can translate the name in Russian if you think it should be translated. It really depends on your community's best practices, and also on how the features are perceived. If your translation focuses on the project of growing up communities, maybe a translation would be better. If your translation focuses on the team's name, maybe it shouldn't be translated since it is a proper noun, defined in English language. Honestly, it is up to you! :)

Concerning the meaning, they are defined by the team's goals and objective, in short increase retention of new contributors. We are trying to see wikis growing up, by reducing the difficulties they may face during their first steps.

I hope this helps you to better understanding the meaning of Growth!

Are you considering to have these features deployed on your wiki?

Iniquity (talkcontribs)

@Trizek (WMF), thanks for the detailed answer! :) I will think about it.

> Are you considering to have these features deployed on your wiki?

Yes, I would like to launch these projects on my wiki. We talked about this with @MMiller (WMF) here.

Reply to "Team name in other languages"

virtual classes in editing Wikipedia and otherwise supporting Wikimedia Foundation projects

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DavidMCEddy (talkcontribs)
Nick Moyes (talkcontribs)

I think that link (to en en-wiki essay page) should have been

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @DavidMCEddy -- thanks for bringing up this question. i have heard stories here and there about editing events, like edit-a-thons, being run online during the time of the pandemic, but I can't point to a specific example. I wonder if the Wiki Education Foundation has been thinking about this explicitly. One thing that I do know that has been successful in the past is WikiMOOC on French Wikipedia ("MOOC" standing for "massive open online course"). I think that @Trizek (WMF) might be able to fill you in or point you to more information about it.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hello

There is actually some efforts to have Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects classes online! I'm not sure if I can list all of them, since there are numerous initiatives.

I can cite you a few examples, a lot in French since it i my primary language.

you can find massive open online courses (WikiMOOCs). Arabic and French Wikipedia have theirs. Wikimedia Chile has its own online campus for this purpose (project Wikipuentes). There is a WikiData-MOOC project ongoing.

Live editing sessions, where people are editing and explaining what they do to their audience are also common: French Wikipedia has them on Twitch, so as some Wikidataians, I know a Wiktionarist who hosts them on Youtube.

Commons hosts a lot of videos about editing. Unfortunately, a lot of ressources are dispersed.

As you noticed, all these resources are based on videos. Text-based classes are not really successful.

Some wiki-clubs are also on-line. There are less classes, but it is also a good way to learn how to edit.

Hope this helps!

Nick Moyes (talkcontribs)

Lest it's of interest, in English, I've found the Wikipedia Weekly Network videos (live and also available afterwards) to be of some interest. (See here and here).

WikiProject remote event participation seems to be an attempt to coordinate good practice, and the Wikimedia DC chapter have recently run quite a few online events (mostly someone talking over a live Powerpoint presentation about the basics of Wikipedia).

But the real failure of all of us is to effectively find a way to gather together and make available information on current events, meetups and live online classes and to promote that calendar effectively. Without somebody creating a good platform to find out what's going on, and where, and then getting it publicised and used correctly, we are wasting so many wonderful opportunities.

I think this question and answer sums the situation up quite succinctly.

Reply to "virtual classes in editing Wikipedia and otherwise supporting Wikimedia Foundation projects"

Newcomer homepage on fr_wikipedia

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Summary by Trizek (WMF)
AirSThib (talkcontribs)
Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thank you for this message, and happy to see you motivated.

I just replied on the Bistro about it. :) If you community is okay, please create the Phabricator task.

(Today, I learnt that "cordially" is an English word, thank you! 👍)

Nemo Le Poisson (talkcontribs)

@AirSThib C'est pas compliqué de se faire un compte Phabricator, il suffit d'aller sur ce lien, et tu peux te créer ton compte grâce à ton compte Wikimedia existant ! Si tu veux, je peux t'aider mais mon anglais à l'air moins bon que toi !

AirSThib (talkcontribs)

Oui je sais mais j'ai 13 ans donc je souhaite pas pour l'instant en créer un à cause de l'adresse mail. On ne serait pas obligé d'indiquer notre e-mail je l'aurais fait depuis longtemps !

Nemo Le Poisson (talkcontribs)
AirSThib (talkcontribs)

Oui.

AB Louis (talkcontribs)

Si cela n'a pas été fait, je peux ouvrir le ticket, ou en êtes-vous @AirSThib?

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Le ticket existe et le déploiement a lieu demain, normalement. :)

77.205.153.224 (talkcontribs)

Parfait !

Reply to "Newcomer homepage on fr_wikipedia"

Keeping in touch with projects

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Ottawahitech (talkcontribs)

I see this:

  • We keep in close communication with the communities our team affects, so that our work remains grounded in reality.

and am just curious how one can be in touch with, say, Korean wikipedia community


MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Ottawahitech -- thank you for your question. There are several ways that we keep in close communication with communities:

  • We have four "target" wikis, which are the wikis to which we first deploy features to try them out. In each of those target wikis, we have a part-time ambassador drawn from the experienced editor community. We meet weekly with the ambassadors, and they are able to communicate to their communities about our work in the local language, and tell our team about the opinions and preferences of their communities.
  • We distribute a regular newsletter that gets posted to the talk pages of anyone who is interested. Those newsletters are translated into many languages. You can view past newsletters and sign up to receive them here.
  • We post weekly short updates on this page.
  • Community members can also follow along on our work in Phabricator. For instance, on this Phabricator task where we are working on "guidance" for newcomer tasks, our current project.

Does this answer your question?

Ottawahitech (talkcontribs)

Sure is nice to get a reply so quickly!


i guess what i am mostly curious about is how to communicate with people who speak a different language such as Korean. I know one can use google translate, but i find it very time consuming. Thanks

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@Ottawahitech -- our approach is to work with people who are multilingual. Our ambassadors, for instance, speak English and their native language (and others!), and so they are able to talk with the Growth team in English and with their communities in the local language. They also use these skills to translate newsletters and other communications. You may be able to find people who speak multiple languages by using categories. For instance, this page lists users on mediawiki.org who speak certain languages. Working with multilingual people solves most of our issues, but we also do use Google Translate from time to time, which helps us get a sense of a local conversation.

Ottawahitech (talkcontribs)

<grin>Wow a second response in a few minutes is a first for me, i think. </grin>

i guess i am kind of wasting everyones time by posting here without organizing my thoughts. What i was getting at was the general difficulty of communicating with others who dont use our language. The reason i mentioned Korean was because i recently participated in a discussion proposing the deletion of a Korean wmf project . The discussion is in english.


Ottawahitech (talkcontribs)

Oops forgot tomention, i must logoff now

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Unfortunately, not all projects have an ambassador to do the translation work. And English is the common language over the Wikimedia movement.

We are always looking for people who speak multiple languages to facilitate conversations.

Ottawahitech (talkcontribs)
Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Other compagnies provide translation engines. That's a first tool to use when you are facing a text you don't understand. Have a magic button that roughly translate a text directly when you are reading the wikis would be a nice technical wish.

Until then, we will have to rely on volunteer translators.

Ottawahitech (talkcontribs)

Thanks again Trizek (WMF) ,

Is there a list somewhere of translation engines provided by other (free/ ad supprted) companies? I find google translate very cumbersome.


Thanks in advance,

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I would say "on Wikipedia". :)

I use google Translate, because of the number of languages covered. I'm more and more moving to https://www.deepl.com/translator; still proprietary, but less Google, fastest and more precise (at least on the EN <-> FR translations I use).

Ottawahitech (talkcontribs)

thanks for the link I will try it out when I get a chance. I just hope it does not collapse when the wiki-herds discover it :-)

Reply to "Keeping in touch with projects"
Alsee (talkcontribs)

I am looking for information on how the team plans to deal with the fact that we have dual editors. This includes, but is not limited to, things such as Newcomer tasks.

Does the team intend to design in an editor-agnostic fashion? Do you intend to funnel users into the Primary editor? The community may reject or disable a product if it attempts to funnel new users into the Secondary editor.

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Alsee -- thanks for looking in detail at our projects and thinking ahead. You're asking an important question that the team is actually starting to discuss. So far, the features that we've built have been editor-agnostic. Specifically, the help panel opens no matter what editor the user chooses; and newcomer tasks lets the user use whichever editor they choose (for wikis that have two edit buttons), or whichever editor is the wiki's default (for wikis that have one edit button). And so the features fall back on the user's or community's choices around editors.

The reason your question is relevant now is because one of the things we're thinking about for newcomer tasks is guidance -- using the help panel to explain to newcomers how to complete the task. The guidance in the panel has to be pursuant to the editor the user is in, of course. So we're looking at what the default editor is on the Wikipedias we're working with (Arabic, Czech, Korean, and Vietnamese), and talking about what preferences those communities have for the editor that newcomers use (in those languages, we have dedicated community contact points that we call "ambassadors"). Interestingly, the different communities that we're working with think about the editors in different ways, which we're learning about.

I'd like to get back to you in the next couple weeks with some more details as we get farther along in design guidance. How does that sound?

Alsee (talkcontribs)

Thanks. The definition of which editor is primary/default has been a recurring point of conflict, so I was a little jumpy when mention of guidance for how to add links appeared to imply or assume the minority editor.

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Alsee -- I’m getting back to you with some more information and next steps around guidance.  We have talked to our community contacts in the four Wikipedias to which we have deployed newcomers tasks (Arabic, Korean, Czech, Vietnamese).  Their recommendation for their own wikis has been to encourage newcomers to use visual editor when doing suggested edits through this feature’s workflow.  Specifically, what this will mean in those four wikis is:

  • In wikis that only have one edit tab, and on mobile devices, users in the newcomers tasks workflow who click edit will see the visual editor.  This is already the default behavior in some wikis. The users will be able to switch to the source editor afterward if they choose.
  • In wikis that have two edit tabs (one for the visual editor and one for the source editor), there will be a blue dot on the visual editor tab that nudges the user to choose the visual editor.  They will still be able to choose the source editor instead, if they wish.
  • Given the two points above, the written guidance that the newcomer sees will explain how to complete the editing tasks via the visual editor.

You made a good point that other communities may have different preferences around which editor the newcomers should be using.  Our plan for that is to build the software so that communities we work with in the future can opt to prefer the source editor for newcomers -- by including guidance around wikitext instead of VE, and by nudging users toward the source editor instead of toward VE.

I’m hoping that this plan respects the interests of communities, and that we can keep an eye on results to make sure that good edits are being made.  Please leave any thoughts you might have.

Alsee (talkcontribs)

@MMiller (WMF) thanks for getting back to me.

Single Edit Tab: I am painfully aware of the situation. I had to escalate this exact issue to the Executive Director. She had to summon the Product Manger to answer me on it.

Six months before the product was even announced, I asked the manager how he was going to handle the question of default editor. He gave me explicit assurance that he would not deploy the product with a VisualEditor default without asking the community first. Six months later it was deployed to several wikis. It was set to VE default. That nearly provoked another Superprotect-level crisis. The largest of affected communities wrote hacks for the sitewide javascript to overrule/override the deployment. The manager eventually relented and reversed it on three wikis. The other affected wikis were smaller. They were likely unaware of the problem, and if they were aware they likely felt unable to battle the Foundation about it. I let the Single Edit Tab issue slide, as the conflict effectively terminated the project. It looks like I'm going to have to return to the issue and get the Single Edit Tab default fixed globally.

It's generally not acknowledged within the WMF, but the data collected by the MWF shows that VE has a negative impact.

Could you provide me with links to the ArabicWiki, KoreanWiki, CzechWiki, and VietnameseWiki discussions deciding to go with VE? I can use machine translation. I'd like to see whether it was a unilateral decision by your contacts, or whether there was a community consensus. If it was a community consensus, I might try to reach out and provide those communities with the data that the Foundation has gathered on VE.

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Alsee — I first want to make sure the scope of what we’re working on is clear. The Growth team is talking just about the newcomer tasks workflow, which won’t affect the editor seen by newcomers who are not participating in the workflow. This work also won’t alter the experience of non-newcomers.

With respect to your question, we did not go through a community discussion process around the decision to nudge newcomers in the suggested edits workflow toward VE — rather, we relied on our ambassadors in those wikis to represent what they think would work best for their communities. Working this way helps us both iterate quickly while also taking community thoughts into account. In this case, our ambassadors have experience mentoring and teaching newcomers to edit, and think that the visual editor will help those users make their first edits and stick around the wiki, so that one day they can move on to more advanced edits. I think they have built up good trust and judgment with their communities by communicating about Growth team work through newsletters and on-wiki conversations in their native languages, and then taking community concerns to our team so that we can adjust.

In that vein, I think it’s a good idea to make sure that communities are aware of these specific plans around VE, and so we’ll make sure to include this aspect of the newcomer tasks workflow in our team’s next newsletter, so that communities can think about and react to it.

Alsee (talkcontribs)

@MMiller (WMF) yes, I understand.

The tension is the pattern of the Foundation pushing the secondary editor as the default. Wikitext is de facto the primary editor, used by the large majority of editors for the large majority of edits. Within the Foundation there is a sincere and widespread belief that VE is beneficial. However out in actual use on wikis the adoption rate for VE have been dismal, there is broad experience that VE is a poor tool for the job, and there is a strong view by many that it's harmful to push new users into VE by default.

Ideally we need a global answer to avoid rehashing the issue on a wiki-by-wiki and product-by-product basis. However I do not anticipate reaching to that point soon enough to apply here.


I think it’s a good idea to make sure that communities are aware of these specific plans around VE, and so we’ll make sure to include this aspect of the newcomer tasks workflow in our team’s next newsletter, so that communities can think about and react to it.

While that would be an improvement, it is difficult enough for large communities to oppose WMF announcements. Smaller wikis rarely speak up because of the language barrier, and because they may feel powerless to challenge the WMF.

My view on software deployment is that the Foundation should either:

  • make a good faith assumption that silent wikis probably agree with the larger wikis that have spoken up; or
  • ask them.

Would you be willing to post the question on their central management page? (Village Pump or equivalent.) It's also good practice to make a good faith effort to help people make an informed decision. I could dig up the link for the VE-favorable usertesting the Foundation did with non-editor lab test subjects. There's this graph showing VE has half the interface retention rate as the wikitext editor - for the VE interface users quickly either quit editing completely or they switch to the wikitext interface. There's also a new A/B test on the effect a mobile VE default. The team hasn't made the results public yet but a sub-task makes it clear the results were bad for VE.

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Alsee -- I agree that the story of where and how VE is valuable for users is certainly nuanced, and I don't have the expertise to be able to dig into the data here. I do know that our ambassadors, who are very active in their communities, recommend that we use VE for this workflow and believe that decision aligns with their communities' preferences. We’ve been working with these ambassadors on Growth projects for over a year, and we’re going to continue to trust them to represent their communities as we do our work, and keep communities informed so that they can speak up when they have concerns.  We're not going to post specifically about this issue on those wikis, because our ambassadors don't believe it will be a contentious issue.

As we continue to expand to more wikis, we will likewise make sure that those communities are informed about the feature set before we deploy, including this part about encouraging newcomers to use VE in newcomer tasks.  Our current plan is to inform about this decision in our upcoming newsletter, which goes to many community members and management pages on our target wikis.

Alsee (talkcontribs)

For a moment there I thought things were going well. Not only did you decline the simple request to ask those communities, you escalated declaring you've decided you're going to try to shove out a VE-default on this globally.

If you are unwilling to ask the community, I'll do it. I'll start with English Wikipedia - it represents nearly half of our global community. If necessary I'll organize additional wikis into an effective Global Community Consensus.

I find it painful and baffling that the Foundation keep insisting on making this into a battle. It just contributes to the already-substantial community distrust or even hostility against the Foundation.

Reply to "Wikiext and Visual editors"
HLHJ (talkcontribs)

I've been heavily editing Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Encourage the newcomers, trying to give fairly concrete and evidence-based advice, and it occurs to me that there are some experts here, too. I'd appreciate any criticism, commentary, or contributions. HLHJ (talk) 03:00, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thank you for sharing this! I've read it and I think it is a good approach to introduce the work with newcomers.

Here are some ressources you can use to enrich your page, as examples or as inspirations:

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @HLHJ -- I think it's really cool that you're working on that page. How will other editors find it and read it? One thing that I definitely recommend including is advice on how experienced editors can recommend tasks to newcomers. Many newcomers arrive with something specific and challenging they want to do, such as write a new article. They don't realize that writing a new article is one of the most difficult things to do on Wikipedia, and so they try, fail, and leave. It can be good for an experienced editor to say something like, "It's good that you want to write a new article about a band. That's one of the most challenging things to do on Wikipedia. I bet you'll end up succeeding with your article if you practice some easier edits. Here are some existing articles about bands that could use some copyediting."

HLHJ (talkcontribs)

Sorry for the slow reply, I have some problems with my use of the notifications system, as you know :).

  • An analysis of two reports made by French Wikipedia and Hungarian Wikipedia about welcoming new users (in German), published on the Kurier.] (archived version, as link above now broken)
    • I think this is a bit out-of-scope for the essay, which is more about individual actions than community ones (though I'd agree that the latter are important changed my mind, added draft content). I'll add in "How to interact with newcomers", though, it's an excellent collection of traditional knowledge, if I can use that for a community of ca. 1 generation age. It would be really great if that page had citations to empirical evidence, maybe an observational study... I assume you've seen this on de's checked version system?

"Editing Wikipedia with my parents" is fascinating; I tend to see it as confirmation of my preconception that the main good/bad experience determinant is the interactions with other editors. I barely interacted with other editors at all for the first decade or so on en; IP editing, not even revert notifications. I guess that put me in the "Knowledge sharer" profile. On fr and de, though, I've generally had edits reverted for inadequate language skills; the implication that the editors there do not consider my edits worth ten seconds of their translation-polishing time is rather demotivating. I polish translations on en, and while sometimes the English is hard to understand ("velvet municipality"? oh, Samtgemeinde) I find that amusing.

"Encourage the newcomers" gets about 50 views a day these days. I did link it from WP:BITE, which is fairly trafficked, so hopefully anyone interested will find it. I've added some material on recommending tasks and new editors' goals, though it's still pretty rough and poorly-integrated; I'll come back to it when I've thought it over. HLHJ (talk) 05:04, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

HLHJ (talkcontribs)
MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@HLHJ -- thanks for pointing it out! I put some thoughts there.

Reply to "Encourage the newcomers feedback"
Return to "Growth" page.