Topic on Talk:New Developers/Flow

No, thanks. This page is for NEW developers. Also see phab:T176668.

I'm a bit surprised to find the MediaWiki project absent on this page. I assume there is a good reason for this; something like complexity, lack of mentoring or development documentation, or something else entirely.

But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be mentioned, at the very least as an intermediate option, perhaps at the bottom of the list. We have a phabricator project good first task with things that new developers can do.

It also does not help that the page links to New Developers#Choose a software project on the same page, which does not list MediaWiki, but the next item, "Set up your development environment" is irrelevant for any of the mentioned projects! It focuses solely on MediaWiki.

@Mainframe98 "Frustrating new developers with a super complex codebase" sounds very different from "could be an option for intermediate developers". On a more serious note, see phab:T176668

@Mainframe98 Very much agree, it makes absolutely no sense to not even mention MediaWiki even though it's the core, main project and has a large backlog of open, even basic, issues and a severe lack of new developers.

Furthermore, it's that page that developers who actually happen to find and click on the "Developers" link at the bottom of Wikipedia pages rather than this making it even more important that MediaWiki should not only be mentioned but be at the very top of that page. No good rationale for not including that page has been given and I reopened that issue which was closed because of the opinion of one employee.

I disagree here, obviously. The MediaWiki core codebase is definitely NOT a place for *new* developers to advertise for starting with.

I think you have a conception of the "New Developers" page as a page for people to learn code development. However, that page is about developers new to M̶e̶d̶i̶a̶W̶i̶k̶i̶ (irrelevant I guess?) Wikipedia-related software development. Of those people only a fraction are new developers or not-yet-developers aspiring to become developers (many already are experienced devs). Partly because of that, I included the note "Development may be more difficult than with the projects below." in the card which could also state that the codebase is large and somewhat complex if you think people should be aware of that. In any case, new developers for MediaWiki is far more important than for any of the other projects and as MediaWiki is the core software behind Wikipedia and other projects it definitely should be on that page.

It is not a page for people to learn code development in general. It is a page for people who are absolutely new to code development in Wikimedia software projects, and especially MediaWiki Core is one of the most complex codebases around. Have you done MediaWiki core code development? "Importance" does not imply "a good place to start with".

How will MediaWiki development become easier if you code some niche C++ negligible side-project? Users can decide which of those projects they start with, the card says it's more complicated than the other projects, there's "good first tasks" and it may be exactly what experienced developers are looking for. A good place to start with MediaWiki development is MediaWiki development.

Further info at the phabricator task.

There is no good reason for this to remain decline because of 1 (one) employee's opinion even though I can somewhat better understand you now. I don't think you understood my reasons though. As this page is about New MediaWiki- & Wikipedia-related-software- Developers, no actual reasons have been submitted so far.

Listing MediaWiki Core here will not magically make its "development become easier", so the question unfortunately doesn't make much sense to me.

A good place to start with MediaWiki development is NOT MediaWiki Core development. Some well-written extensions with a clear scope, good documentation, good architecture, and active maintainers can be a good place to start though.

Do you know for sure that is all the case for MediaWiki core; do you know its codebase?

Some reasons have actually been provided; see phab:T176668. I don't know why you repeat writing that statement (and I don't know either how it's relevant if I'm some "employee" of something or not).

The question was just meant to illustrate why "Have you done MediaWiki core code development? "Importance" does not imply "a good place to start with"." is not addressing anything relevant. You keep going back to previous points and ignore what I'm saying maybe just calm a bit (not sure how you could even misunderstand it that way), have a good night of sleep and then read it again. I'll repeat it anyway:

However, that page is about developers new to M̶e̶d̶i̶a̶W̶i̶k̶i̶ (irrelevant I guess?) Wikipedia-related software development. Of those people only a fraction are new developers or not-yet-developers aspiring to become developers (many already are experienced devs). Partly because of that, I included the note "Development may be more difficult than with the projects below." A lot of the people may already be sufficiently experienced developers.

The inadequacy is even more apparent when outlining the process users come to this page: Wikipedia page->Developers->clicking "Choose a project" next to "Software development"->land on the "New Developers" page with not even a mention of the software that powers Wikipedia page.

Also that page doesn't even list a MediaWiki extension. And even if it did, that wouldn't remove the necessity to mention MediaWiki development.

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Basically, if you want to learn swimming and go to a page linked as "How to swim" you'd like it to contain info about swimming, not about how to walk. Yes, sure it may be easier to learn how to walk in your opinion but maybe, for example, you already can swim.

I'm pretty calm, no need to worry. :) Given the scope of the page (developers new to Wikimedia) there is no "necessity to mention MediaWiki development": the page is intentionally not listing all and any hundreds of Wikimedia software projects as most of them (such as MediaWiki core) are not well-suited for new developers.

Did you check New Developers/Featured Projects and can you explain why you think that the mentioned criteria is fulfilled by MediaWiki core? Because I don't.

And asking another time: Have you done any MediaWiki core code development?

Okay, great. Nevertheless, I don't think you considered the points I made or addressed them.

There is a necessity because that page is about new MediaWiki developers (as well as the Wikipedia app and some less important side-projects). Even if it was the most difficult thing to do, which it isn't, it should still be included there.

So apparently, as you ignore my points and in your opinion apparently that page should be about onboarding new developers to hire so that they later professionally work on other projects (MediaWiki) rather than volunteer-developers to directly work on MediaWiki (new MediaWiki developers) the only option is to change the page that links to it (and the point about the context of that page is one of those you keep ignoring).

To adapt the metaphor above: If you insist on learning swimming in stormy waters without help (like MediaWiki core), then How to become a MediaWiki hacker is the page you're looking for. If you want to learn swimming in calm waters with some help, then New Developers is the page you're looking for.

I don't think that I ignored your points, however there might be a bit of irony as you repeatedly chose not to answer my questions and as you again put words in my mouth I've never written, for example that I'd think the "page should be about onboarding new developers to hire".

If I understand correctly, you either think or wish that MediaWiki Core is or would be a good place to start for new developers in Wikimedia, I told you that it is not and I tried to explain what is [not] the scope and target group of the New Developers page, you haven't answered why MediaWiki Core would be a codebase to add to the New Developers page based on the criteria to be a project listed on the New Developers page, and you have not worked with the MediaWiki Core codebase...

As said if a) the page is linked as (and here also titled as) "How to swim in stormy waters" b) people are warned about it being stormy (and in many cases that's exactly what they are looking for and capable of) and c) doing so is important because there's currently a triathlon with swimming in that water (not that MW development currently is a "competition" but it's on-topic and what people seek), that is still required.

"New Developers" is also about new MediaWiki developers plus that page is linked as the main way to help with Software development in the context of Wikipedia.

With that "page should be about onboarding new developers" I meant to show you what my impression so far is. This is what it appears to me currently. Is that not the case? If so please address my points and clarify what you mean with "new developers in Wikimedia".

Yes, it is one of the good places at the very least. Even if it is very difficult. Plus it won't become easier if devs work on other C++ projects (btw unlike MediaWiki development which would become easier in time if they don't waste time with other projects if they only want to work on the software behind Wikipedia, are experienced devs, start with "good first tasks" and learn well by doing – if they develop MW they'd have to start doing so anyhow and as said developing unrelated projects won't make it easier) so your point doesn't even make sense (except if the page is about onboarding devs for hiring them which is why this is how it currently appears to me). I know you're one of the most active devs and people owe you a lot and MediaWiki development may be very difficult and the current criteria may not match the MediaWiki addition, nevertheless you didn't address the explanations and it should still be there or the link to that page moved down from where it is linked.

To point out only one of the wrong assumptions in the last comment: I am not one of the "most active devs", and it looks like we're running in circles as my questions are intentionally ignored. I'll turn to things that look like a more constructive use of time.

Good First Tasks is more than half given to Mediawiki core + extensions.

And "How to become a Mediawiki hacker" is listed on the page. So it is mentioned, and easy for any interested visitor to find.

I could see making it (and 'good first tasks' generally) a bit more prominent.

The whole Wiki project is centered around MediaWiki on its core. It should be somewhere under "Choose a software project", if necessary with some disclaimer that it may be more difficult than the, largely niche, side-projects listed there. It would be less confusing and easier to spot or come across if it was there. Re it being for *New* developers: the page doesn't suggest it's meant to be for people who just learned coding rather it seems to be for potential new people for the volunteer Wiki developers. Not adding a proper tile including a screenshot for MediaWiki – the key core software with tons of open basic issues like viewable tables on mobile – isn't a good idea and it hasn't been much discussed so far. Thus I hoped a discussion would take place here but it was just the more or less two-people internal discussion that took place earlier at the phab issue. Thinking of a temporary fix via small screenshot.

No. See previous arguments.