Topic on Talk:Mailing lists/Flow

Starting a new discussion based on the current status after Nemo's merge.

I think the changes are good progress but after some days I still feel we are not done with the right solution.

What about this principle: if a mailing list has "mediawiki" in its name it must be listed here. Otherwise goes to meta:Mailing lists/Overview.

The inverse happens at meta, and meta:Mailing_lists/Overview#MediaWiki should have simply a link to this page. Note that under the MediaWiki section in meta there are some lists that are not *mediawiki*. They should stay in Meta.

This post was posted by Qgil-WMF, but signed as Qgil.

Most of the mediawiki-i18n audience is on Meta, for instance; mediawiki-distributors, mediawiki-enterprise are also not really "MediaWiki things", but rather external/wikimedian efforts about MediaWiki; moreover, mediawiki-commits should be on the same page as wikitech-l etc. In short, I agree that the lists there could be resorted, but all those lists are relevant on Meta, while it's dubious if they are here.

mediawiki-commits sounds like an obvious list to be mentioned here, where the MediaWiki software is developed...

And about wikitech-l... The trusth is that if you are interested in getting involved in the MediaWiki community that is the list you need to join.

About mediawiki-distributors and mediawiki-enterprise... Isn't the other way around? They are really MediaWiki specific and no Wikimedia related (in the sense of dealing with Wikimedia projects content or processes).

I don't have a strong opinion about these lists being listed at Meta, but I do believe they should be readable ere without requiring the extra step that might never come (most people are lazy / have little time).

This post was posted by Qgil-WMF, but signed as Qgil.

I still don't understand what the "extra step" is. If it's the additional click, then replace the link in the sidebar.

? Replacing a link in he sidebar still would leave the MediaWiki lists mentioned one click away, right?

I think the problem is of perspective. You seem to be seeing this problem from the point of view of an experienced MediaWiki user knowing what you are looking for and happy to jump seamlessly to different websites within the Wikimedia family e.g. Meta.

Now look at the same situation from the point of view of someone new at mediawiki.org willing to learn more. This user will probably find Communication, where mediawiki-l is proposed, or will find Mailing lists directly where two more lists are listed. The user might see the "Interwiki redirect - This page can be found at..." and understand or not what it means, feel compelled to click or just go for another mediawiki.org tab open. If that user clicks, will land in a very different context and she might oe might not be happy about it.

Again, for a user sure about what she is looking for all this is no big deal, but probably many users have a mild interest, little time and plenty of new data in front of their noses when they dive for the first time to mediawiki.org.

Can you please comment on the lists mentioned above? Especially wikitech-l, which is in fact the list where most MediaWiki action happens and where there is a good balance between MediaWiki and Wikimedia tech topics. I think it is our interest to promote that list to mediawiki.org newcomers. About the other two, I still think they are purely MediaWiki centric and could be listed here, instead of sending MediaWiki 3rd party users to no less than Meta.

This post was posted by Qgil-WMF, but signed as Qgil.

One click away from what? The sidebar can link m:Mailing_lists/Overview#MediaWiki directly. Note that wikitech-l was the first list there but I moved that section down because you asked mediawiki-* lists to have more visibility, but again: please do reorganize items yourself as you prefer.

I don't expect many people to arrive here from links on other pages, but incoming links can easily be fixed to point to Meta as well. Sure, it would be better if we could disable $wgDisableHardRedirects, maybe a feature request to allow whitelisting should be filed.

I also disagree on your characterisation about "the point of view of an experienced MediaWiki user": no matter where, if it's on a wiki I'll find it; on the contrary, normal people are very confused by similar information being scattered and split across several slightly different locations. And no, I don't think going to Meta is a problem for any non-Wikimedian; usually they don't even notice they're on Meta (or any other wiki) rather than, say, Wikipedia.

Quim, I think the one addition I'd strongly propose for this list is wikitech-l - you ok with that?

wikitech-l added.

This post was posted by Qgil-WMF, but signed as Qgil.