Talk:Talk pages project/Replying/2020/11

The team would value any thoughts and/or questions you have about this new tool for Replying to specific comments on talk pages.

V2 Feedback: Diego Moya

Version 2.0 testing feedback

TASK #4: What are your initial impressions of the tool? What stands out to you? Do you find something particularly eye-catching? Confusing?

The position where the response box appear looks completely random, it's hard to predict where it will be placed, even as an experienced user who knows the conventions for replying threaded comments.

TASK #6: Could you figure out how to ping someone who has commented in the section you are replying in? What did you think of this experience?

It's much easier than version 1, assuming you use the Visual editor. It's surprising that repeatedly pressing the button creates several "@" symbols, it would be better if it was idempotent.

TASK #7: Could you figure out how to ping someone who has not commented in the section you are replying in? What did you think of this experience?

The interface doesn't provide any hint that this is a possible thing to do.

Knowing by the test instructions that this action is possible, I clicked on the "Find user" text on the popup expecting that it would launch some kind of autocomplete search tool for user names, but it did nothing. I suspect that typing a name will work as a ping, but I can't be sure - there's no hint in the interface before or after posting the comment.

TASK #8: Could you figure out how to delete the ping you created in Task #7? What did you think of this experience?

I deleted the text "@user_name", I expect that this would cancel the ping. I don't think this was the obvious thing to do, there should be some visual prompt.

OVERALL: If there are other comments or questions you would like to make the team aware of, please write them here.

If newcomers say they don't understand the purpose of the talk page, it's because it is not self-explanatory. The most visible text is "Talk:Dogs / From Wikipedia", which doesn't say anything of what the page is about. A subtitle similar to "Talk:Dogs / Discuss how to improve the article" would help them make sense of the page and look for ways to participate. Diego Moya (talk) 23:40, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Diego. @JKlein (WMF) will really appreciate your detailed comments. If you want to try it "live" at the English Wikipedia, then you can copy this edit: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Whatamidoing_(WMF)/global.js&diff=20189786&oldid=20032761 I've been very happy with it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:03, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Using correct indenting/bulleting

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T267813

I have noticed that it has trouble using the correct reply style. For instance in this reply (and other similar replies) despite people consistently using * replies the tool uses : (and in the linked reply it also added an extra line break). Here it previewed correctly but still ended up using a : as the ultimate reply style causing it to render incorrectly. For me taking the human error out of this - because it's don't incorrectly a lot - is a hidden advantage for this tool and it's disappointing to see that it's not yet handling this correctly. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:48, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

This reply was to Masem's reply to me but it only idented two levels rather than three. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:52, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Replying to * with *: is intentional (for the moment). That's because some people prefer ** and some prefer *:, and outside of the Russian Wikipedia, there is little agreement on what the One True™ Style is. Those replies were originally ** and editors asked to have it changed. Now that it's *:, other editors are asking to have it changed back. The team's plan is to figure it out later.

Reply to * with : is wrong – assuming that you were replying to the * and not to the original comment at the top of the section (in which case, this is AFAICT a consequence of the decision about ** vs *:).

Replying to :: with :: is wrong. I notice that all of these examples come from a single page. Have you noticed this happening anywhere else? (There might be something 'wrong' with the structure elsewhere on the page.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:41, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I feel like I did experience the wrong indent level on another page but I cannot quickly find it now. If I do I'll add it to the Phab task.

And yes I did reply to Sportingflyer's bulleted reply. As I said it previewed correctly but then rendered wrong. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:00, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Repeating my comment from Phabricator here:

The comment above is missing a parenthesis in the timestamp 22:33, 9 November 2020 (UTC. As a result it is not detected as a comment, so it becomes part of the next comment. The next comment is now a mixed-level comment with a minimum level of 1 indentation, which is why the reply has 2 indentation.

This is more clear when you turn dtdebug on: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Notability&oldid=988997384&dtenable=1&dtdebug=1#Is_the_GNG_a_test_or_a_standard?

As the tool relies on complete signatures to detect comment boundaries, I don't think there is anything that can be done here. ESanders (WMF) (talk) 23:04, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Hm, maybe I am not deeply involved with this topic, but when you have a look at this discussion page: w:de:Diskussion:Predator_(Film)#Korrekte_Verwendung_des_alias-Begriffs?. I cannot notice missing parenthesis. --Smarti (talk) 22:06, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

@Smarti: You didn’t use this tool. This tool is desktop-only (yet?), the mobile site has another reply functionality. (And German Wikipedia doesn’t have this tool yet anyway.) When I forcibly enable it by going to https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Predator_(Film)?dtenable=1 (desktop site), it seems to work well (although I haven’t actually saved a comment). Tacsipacsi (talk) 17:17, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Detecting non signed messages

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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It would be usefull being able to reply to messages with the "unsigned" template Valcio (talk) 18:05, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

It is possible, but the template must look like a real signature – including a link to the user page, and a date and time. Help:DiscussionTools/Why can't I reply to this comment?#Ambiguous "unsigned" templates

Can you link to an example where it's not working? Matma Rex (talk) 20:28, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

@Matma Rex It seems it isn't working on the whole italian wikipedia. The template is "Template:Non firmato". As example, you can see it:User_talk:ValeJappo#footer Valcio (talk) 20:32, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

The template doesn't output the time zone abbreviation ("CET" or "CEST"). The module https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulo:Non_firmato could probably just add it if it's not provided, similar to how https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module:Unsigned adds "(UTC)".

Note that it doesn't actually matter if it uses the wrong abbreviation ("CET" is supposed to be used in standard time, and "CEST" in summer daylight saving time), but it has to use the same timezone as normal comments (so e.g. not "UTC"). Matma Rex (talk) 21:06, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! Valcio (talk) 21:11, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Matma Rex. Now the reply button appears, but (just with the unsigned template) I get an error when I press it Valcio (talk) 06:20, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

It looks like it works on the rest of the page, but not on the Template:Nf signatures.

@Matma Rex, does the signature template need to be subst:d to work? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:37, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@m@Whatamidoing (WMF) it seems working if substituted, but of course it is not thinkable making it subst all the times. Valcio (talk) 06:18, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not able to investigate this at the moment, but if you file a bug, we'll get around to looking into it. This should work. Matma Rex (talk) 20:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@ValeJappo are you able to check whether you are still experiencing this issue? The fix for it [i] should have arrived at it.wiki yesterday, 10-December.

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i. https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools/+/643379/ PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 03:11, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

@PPelberg (WMF) yes, it seems working! Valcio (talk) 08:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove self from ping list

T267680: Do not show "self" in username suggestion list

Hello, It's me again :D Again, it's awesome. One thing I noticed and I hope it would be easy to fix is that when I open the menu to ping people, it gives me a list of suggestions which is usually users who participated in the discussion. The problem is that if I participated in the discussion already, my name also shows up there which doesn't make much sense. Also removing it reduces the cognitive burden of choosing the right user from the list. Thanks again! Ladsgroup (talk) 18:51, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed that too. Patrik L. (talk) 19:13, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Great spot, @Ladsgroup – thank you for saying something about this. I agree the username suggestion list should work as you are describing.

This is the ticket where work to adapt it to function in this way is here: phab:T267680. PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 20:16, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

How to ping someone using source, Reply

Hello, I find that when I use reply, the source mode, when I am replying to someone, the person is not pinged. Do I have to manually ping or is there some hack in the tool to allow an auto ping? Thanks Camouflaged Mirage (talk) 10:43, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

hi @Camouflaged Mirage – we appreciate you stopping by to ask. Below is a direct response to the question you posed and follow up question for you...

Response

Do I have to manually ping or is there some hack in the tool to allow an auto ping?

Currently, in order to ping/notify someone of the comment you have written with the Reply Tool, you need to manually ping them.

Follow up question

I find that when I use reply, the source mode, when I am replying to someone, the person is not pinged.

Would it be accurate for me to understand the above as you saying the following:

"I expect the person whose comment the [ reply ] link I clicked appears next to, to be automatically notified when I publish the reply I've written with the Reply Tool." PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 19:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, appreciate the very prompt reply. I get your response. For the follow up, yes, this is what I had in mind. Maybe not everytime but an option to add in a ping will be useful. Much appreciated, thanks. Camouflaged Mirage (talk) 10:59, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Camouflaged Mirage, have you tried the "visual" mode? The team is thinking about two things related to your request. One is to put the visual mode's toolbar into the source mode. It has a button for searching for any user's name. The other is to add an easy, one-click ping for the person who's comment the Reply tool thinks you're replying to (like a checkbox that says "☑︎ Ping WhatamIdoing"). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:54, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't try visual mode. Thanks for pointing out but yeah, if the visual mode can be implemented into source it will be better as for some complex replies, wikitext is much faster as we are more familiar to use wikitext. Both ideas seems fine. Thanks much. Camouflaged Mirage (talk) 11:27, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Ignoring style

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T267814

Hello. We have noticed that if the signature is put inside an html tag or some wikitext with a different style, the reply button appears inside this, and so get its style. Two examples are:

• People that write a message in <small>, and so even the button appears smaller
• The template unsigned (Template:Non firmato) on the Italian Wikipedia , that uses '' to make the message italic, even the reply button is written in italic

• Valcio (talk) 06:15, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I was forgotting about this; If the response button is inside a small tag, the responsive popup appears with smaller text Valcio (talk) 06:19, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

If you want to make a screenshot of the latter problem, then please add it to the Phabricator task. (It's easy to upload screenshots into Phab tasks.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:59, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Skip line

I noticed that this tool ignore how many times i press enter, it just don't skip lines. Can this be fixed? Valcio (talk) 15:48, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Blank lines often cause accessibiility problems for blind people and other people using screen readers, so they are automatically removed.

Did you want blank lines before, after, or in the middle of your comment? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:05, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Whatamidoing (WMF) in the middle Valcio (talk) 05:50, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Do you want real blank links, and not just a new paragraph? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 01:43, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Exactly Valcio (talk) 07:02, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, putting blank lines in between "indented" paragraphs causes invalid HTML and other problems. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:41, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Reply to old messages

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T268589

Hello, If users press on the reply button of messages that are not the last in a section, the message is added in a wrong position; the indentation is wrong. Valcio (talk) 17:00, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@ValeJappo Hello, could you please provide a link where it happend? Patrik L. (talk) 21:15, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@Patriccck Hi, I was testing it here https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Discussioni_utente:ValeJappo&diff=116606339&oldid=116606329&diffmode=source. It was positioned under the wrong message. It happened all times I tested this. Valcio (talk) 21:16, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Perfefct, thanks. Ping for developer @PPelberg (WMF) :-) Patrik L. (talk) 21:18, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Which comment (time/date) were you trying to reply to in that edit? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:00, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Whatamidoing (WMF)

Hi, I created a new test page for this, you will find all informations you need there. it:User talk:ValeJappo/Sandbox#reply_to_old_messages

If I try replying to the first message, even if there are other before, it seems working, but it will be better if in this cases, the messages got one more level of indentation, because it can bw confused with the following message.

If I try replying to a message in the middle, broblem occoura Valcio (talk) 06:10, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

In principle, later replies should not go before earlier replies. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 01:46, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@Whatamidoing (WMF)@Patriccck

Hi, another strange thing happened: in https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aiuto:Sportello_informazioni&diff=116856029&oldid=116855889&diffmode=source the indentation went wrong for no reason. I was replying to the last message. Valcio (talk) 12:10, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Edge case: Replying to barnstars/wikilove

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T250126

T267995: Consider revising signature placement

One edge case I found is that when someone posts a barnstar/wikilove (like here), if you click on reply, the respond would go inside the wikitable not outside. I have a feeling this is really hard to fix. Just letting you know. Ladsgroup (talk) 12:23, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Well... in the specific case, I wonder (a) whether the Reply button could be turned off inside tables and (b) what workflows would break if we did that. People don't usually carry on conversations inside tables, but sometimes when I make those assumptions, I discover that it's a critical feature for someone's key workflow. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:43, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Alternatively we could fix the WikiLove extension to be less terrible and put the signature outside the template/table, like we'd expect any other tool to do? :-) Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 18:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh...interesting, @Jdforrester (WMF). Here's a task for that: phab:T267995. PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 02:08, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Whatamidoing (WMF): I’m pretty sure there are tons of discussion pages where the basic structure of the page is designed with tables (for example this one, although it’s so terribly broken that the reply tool already doesn’t work, without excluding tables). I can’t think of any valid reason to do so though, so maybe disabling and leaving a note on Help:DiscussionTools/Why can't I reply to this comment? is OK. Tacsipacsi (talk) 23:43, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I love it!

Thank you for creating it! Susannaanas (talk) 07:03, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, Susannaanas. Which wiki have you been using it at? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:40, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

I used it for the first time at the community wishlist survey. I am trying to set up a campaign in smnwiki using the reply tool. I would like to have assistance ensuring that it can be used in the project namespace as opt-out. I have preliminarily discussed this with the administrators.

I would like to allow starting the conversation without a signature. In the campaign I am envisioning, the discussion starts with a question, and the readers are invited to reply and discuss https://smn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mii_lii_kooveest Susannaanas (talk) 20:08, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Have other editors there, such as @Yupik, tried it out? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:15, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I am inviting them to reply here and on the page. Susannaanas (talk) 06:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Maybe this is worth another thread, but it deals with the same project. I am testing different ways of laying out a picture on the left and the discussion to the right. Contrary to what I thought, using an enclosing table works well, but a left-aligned picture with text wrap makes the indentation of the discussion disappear. Susannaanas (talk) 08:27, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Susannaanas, can you give me a diff of an edit with a left-aligned picture? Also, what web browser do you use? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:29, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Edit conflicts (and apparent)

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T250295

Hi, here https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Discussioni_progetto:Forme_di_vita&diff=116837888&oldid=116837867&diffmode=source the tool didn't recognized an edit conflict, and the intentaton went wrong. Actually, I don't know if it is a real edit conflict, or if the other user submitted the edit before i started replying but after i loaded the page. Valcio (talk) 15:36, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

The indentation is technically correct: you replied to the fifth comment, and your reply is idented under the fifth comment. However, not every editor/every wiki likes that, because it's hard to read (especially when * list formatting is absent).

The problem, as you note, is that people may reply at the same time. The question at phab:T250295 is what we want the devs to do about it. Warn us before posting? (Then we might not post.) Or tell us afterwards? (Then we can 'fix' the indentation.) Something else? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:46, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Mentioning a user in source mode?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I would love for that to be supported in source mode as well if that was possible. It is the only thing that I use the visual mode for. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 05:15, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

It's planned but we haven't been able to work on it yet (T257391). Meanwhile, you can use the mention templates, like you would in the normal wikitext editor (i.e. {{ping|MJL}}). Matma Rex (talk) 21:21, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Update:

If you want to try out the toolbar for the wikitext 'source' mode, go to the end of Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing on your home wiki and tick the box for "Enable editing tools in source mode" Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Not coded to read timestamps-only?

I found out that name and date are required to make "[reply]" appear, right? The Reply tool doesn't read ~~~~~ (i.e. date-only signatures), which would have resulted in "10:14, 29 November 2020 (UTC)". Rather a username is needed as well. George Ho (talk) 10:14, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Those aren't signatures. Those are timestamps. Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 16:07, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, see Help:DiscussionTools/Why can't I reply to this comment?#No link to the user page.

We've tried adding a reply link next to all timestamps (even without signatures), but it seemed to be confusing more often than it's useful, see T245692. Matma Rex (talk) 21:17, 30 November 2020 (UTC)