Talk:Code of Conduct

Liz (talkcontribs)

Hello, Code of Conduct team,


I'd like to read over the proceedings of where your tech division decided to infinitely block MZMcBride who has contributed so much to the English Wikipedia. I trust these deliberations aren't done in secret so I'd like to read over your reasons and reasoning to come to such a drastic decision. Thank you.

Ladsgroup (talkcontribs)

Hi, According to CoC itself, these cases are private to protect the reporters and targets of harassment. We are not allowed to discuss those publicly. Keep it in mind, Mz's ban was not just because of one offense and it's because of a long-term pattern of problematic behavior.

Jonesey95 (talkcontribs)

I have read the "Confidentiality" section. I do not see anything in there that prevents the disclosure of diffs or postings that do not contain confidential private information. If any of the behavior leading to this block occurred in public forums and has not been redacted, please link to it. Thanks.

Martin Urbanec (talkcontribs)

The confidentiality section of the CoC/Committee policy indeed does prevent the Committee from publishing links. While it doesn't say so explicitly, it says that the identities of harassment targets are confidential. As such, it's not possible to publish the links without also disclosing confidential information.

In any case, please do note (as Ladsgroup mentioned above) that Mz's ban did not happen due to a single offense; instead, the decision was made based on the long-term pattern of Mz's behavior in technical spaces.

Jonesey95 (talkcontribs)

There are zero existing links showing any violating behavior that can be disclosed? What prevents this committee from being a star chamber?

I have no reason to believe or disbelieve either side of this dispute, having encountered unreasonableness and obstinacy from both MZMcBride and WMF staff, but living in a country with guarantees of due process makes me wary of secret trials, and of judgements rendered without disclosure of any of the evidence or even a summary of the evidence presented.

How about a summary of the proceedings, with quotations from the evidence that do not compromise the confidentiality regulations? How about a list of the specific items in the code of conduct that MZMcBride was determined to have violated? Any measure of transparency would be welcome.

Anomie (talkcontribs)

I think what it comes down to is that MZ has been known for over a decade as someone who has the interests of Wikipedia at heart, and who helps keep WMF "honest" by calling things out, but also sometimes picks odd windmills to tilt at and who frequently expresses himself abrasively and without appropriate amounts of tact.

Unfortunately for the past several years the power at WMF has been held by those who're willing to use tone policing, endless discussions, consultations with predetermined outcomes, and similar tactics to promote their agendas, whether those agendas are "advocate for social change" or "climb the management ladder" or "play with new technology". So bars on "acceptable behavior" get lowered and secret courts get created to enforce this without the benefit of external scrutiny.

What prevents it from becoming a star chamber? That it already is, the question is where it is between "just and efficient" (cf. the original Star Chamber around the time of its formation) and "corrupt abuse of power" (cf. the original a few decades later).

As someone who also struggles with "appropriate amounts of tact", I find that this sort of thing creates for me the sort of hostile environment that the advocates claim they're seeking to prevent.

Alexis Jazz (talkcontribs)

"As someone who also struggles with "appropriate amounts of tact", I find that this sort of thing creates for me the sort of hostile environment that the advocates claim they're seeking to prevent."

I just released a trial balloon about blocking the TechConductCommittee from English Wikipedia. That's probably not sufficiently tactful either. It's on English Wikipedia though, so technically the star chamber shouldn't block me for it. So either I'm safe, or the TechConductCommittee is about to shoot themselves in the foot. We'll see.

Bawolff (talkcontribs)

With all due respect, the en wikipedia discussion is silly and not helping anything.

Alexis Jazz (talkcontribs)

I doubt anything will help anything here. It's not that silly: if we did it (which, granted, is unlikely) I think there's a good chance it would work. The TechConductCommittee isn't going to reform itself without some signal from the outside.

And as for whatever MZMcBride said: people are getting offended way too easily. If someone feels offended, that's typically their problem. See w:en:Everybody Draw Mohammed Day. If it's not a case of w:en:WP:NOTHERE (which this isn't) or cyberstalking (which nobody suggested in this case), then just accept it's all opinion and leave it be. I've been called a cunt and I don't care.

AKlapper (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@Alexis Jazz It's alright if you are personally fine and don't feel offended by getting insulted, or maybe getting bullied, or maybe being physically attacked, or wherever you would like to draw your own individual boundaries and red lines in your life.

It doesn't mean that everyone else is or should be expected to also be personally fine with having your preferred boundary levels. Except if you only want people in the Wikimedia communities who already have a thick skin (and exclude anyone else, but that is only "their problem", as you wrote).

Alexis Jazz (talkcontribs)

Yeah, I'm totally fine with being knifed.[/sarcasm] Come on @AKlapper (WMF), this kind of slippery slope argument is ridiculous.